'The Dalai Lama is right'

Ethnic Tibetan anger bubbled over today, and it wasn’t just in Lhasa, capital of the Tibetan Autonomous Region. Here’s a link to the story I've just written about the rioting in Lhasa.

Click on this website and scroll down to see photos taken with a mobile phone of what happened outside the Labrang Monastery in Gansu Province today. This place is far, far to the northeast of Tibet, practically halfway between Lhasa and Beijing. It is a big ethnic Tibetan enclave.

All week, Chinese officials have been saying only a handful of disgruntled Tibetans are causing problems. The Dalai Lama, for his part, says discontent is widespread because of "unimaginable and gross violations" by China against Tibetans.

I spoke a little while ago with Robbie Barnett, a professor of modern Tibetan studies at Columbia University in NYC. This is the way he summed it up: “The Dalai Lama is right. The Chinese are wrong. The Tibetan people are not happy.”

Comments

[Junhui]

I am angered by the protest in Tibet. I am angered by the supporters of Tibetan separation, Why? Because the supporters are an advocacy groups, monks and Tibetans who have no real understanding of the real world. Let me point out that I have nothing against these people and I want to explain why these three groups have little to complain about.

The advocacy groups come from countries who hold other ethnic territories, such as the advocate Matt Whitticase of the London-based Free Tibet Campaign. So hypocritical that someone from the UK would complain; I wonder how William Wallace is feeling right now or the rest of the Scotts; or if Ireland wants their other half back. Take care of yourself before you worry about others.

As for monks; I understand their discontent with the status of religion in China; and China should really stop choosing religious leaders (I will admit that China has that wrong). What exactly will change for the monks when Tibet is set free? The Dalai Lama will return and bring salvation? No; those monks carrying cell phones; would have been non-existant. Tibet would fall into an abyss of a technological recession. Of course I cannot be sure of this; but I can guarantee that the poor will be more poor.

As for the naive Tibetans (now I'm not talking about Tibetan elites); they complain because of their poverty; they complain because the "Han" have it better than them. It's a common occurrence for the Han people to be punished for success; look in Vietnam when Chinese were forced to use Vietnamese names and shops acquired then redistributed by the Vietnamese government. These naive Tibetans think that if the Dalai Lama comes back; they will be successful; life will become more free and the grains will somehow multiply?

There is nothing worse then another theocracy; the only thing that comes by that is religious oppression; fanaticism; and stagnation. I pity those Tibetans who blame Han Chinese for their woes.

I am a Chinese living in the United States. Let me tell you; all though we are outnumbered by various other cultures; our culture does not fade. They don't teach Chinese in schools and they don't have a Chinese language TV on basic television. Cultural assimilation only happens if we let it happen. Culture is on the inside. Tibetan culture is great; I love it. But if they will not do NON-VIOLENT things to promote their culture then I detest it. It's about cultural promotion not cultural protection. The only thing right about Robbie Barnett's statement is "the Tibetan people are not happy"; so we ask ourselves, why. I think they should build Casinos like the Native Americans.

[Junhui]

PS. shame the Dalai Lama for not condemning the violent protest.

[Sheila Shigley]

And shame on the world for not condemning China's violent invasion and violent occupation of Tibet, and it's violent suppression of the Tibetan--and Chinese--people.

[Sheila Shigley]

And shame on the world for not condemning China's violent invasion and violent occupation of Tibet, and it's violent suppression of the Tibetan--and Chinese--people.

[Junhui]

what invasion is not violent? as if iraq's invasion was not violent. as if the scottish wars were not violent. Did you know that Tibet invaded China? Go read up on Tibetan Chinese history. It's a never ending struggle to see who owns what. So now they deserve their land back because they are "peaceful"? China is better off without Tibet, but hey who wants to give up land.

im sure if China claimed the Tibetan invasion to be manifest destiny it would be okay.

[Pffefer]

Robbie Barnett is rather "too simple, too naive". The Dalai Lama is right. In what sense? The Chinese are wrong? In what sense? The Tibetans are not happy. How? You see so many protests and riots in China these days (more than 90,000 a year), how come they did not receive much attention? Does that mean "All Chinese people are not happy"? Tibet is the post child, I guess.

[Bill]

Sounds like the Chinese really don't understand Tibet, just like all westerners don't understand China.

But anyway, if China can invade, conquer, occupy and colonize Tibet, and all Chinese support this occupation, the US can do the same to Iraq too.

[nanheyangrouchuan]

And this less than one week after the ankle grabbing, egg sucking panda lickers in the white house and state dept took China off the list of human rights abusers.

Good show George W Chamberlain, Wall St. and corporate america.

[Tim J]

Junhui, your remarks are well thought-out and stated. Please keep posting on this site. There is a great deal of hypocrisy, misperception and emotionalism on the Tibet issue.

[chinese buddhist]

It is a pleasure to read Junhui's lucid analysis of globalevents, recent & historical -- makes me feel proud to belong to the same Han people. As for "violent conquest & occupation", Shigley, Gere etc., should look over their own shoulders, at those who sired them. Not to mention the Middle East today! Also, they don't even know the difference between a Buddhist & a Bon...

[nanheyangrouchuan]

Hey Tim,

Are you now towing the Xinhua line that two wrongs make a right? Don't forget that China has been squeezing Tibet's people for 50 years,killing and crippling and untold number of people and a much longer presence than the US.

[VoiceUp]

I am a Chinese student living and studying in the US for 20 years. I am an organizer to support June 4 demonstration at Beijing in 1989.

After 20 years of observation in this country I would not hesitate a bit to say those who claim to care about Tibetans are phony, 100% pretenders. They are interested in driving an edge between Han Chinese and Tibetan people only. Just look at Hong Kong, which has been under Anglo-Saxon control for 150 years. But people in Hong Kong were even not allowed to choose own governor until it was return to China in 1997! English remained a ruling elite high above common Hong Kong folks. Tell me how many inter racial marriage there in that 150 year-span ?, Almost none!

Look at America today. How much does America care about its minorities, Blacks? Hispanics? Native American Indians? Records speaks louder. Look at the Chinese-Americans. They have been on this land for no less than 150 years. But they are still not a part of political process. Tell me which party has made a decent effort to recruit them into political process ? !

English or Anglo-Saxon has conquered so many countries, has subjugated so many peoples. Tell me which natives have received your decent treatment ?

Divide and Conquer is the Golden rule for British Empire, So is the rule adopted by the American Empire. Stir up hatred and inflaming animosity betweenTibetans and Han Chinese is your only motive.

Han Chinese had been get along quite well with Tibetans since AD 400( or record) until English came along in 1900!
Shame on you!

[Tim]

This is true picture of Dalai Lama "peaceful movement".

"We only lived to kill Chinese," recalled one Tibetan veteran. "Our hopes were high." One of the trainees, Gyato

Wangdu (who would later become the last commander of the Chushi Candrug), asked CIA operations officer Roger

McCarthy for "a portable nuclear weapon of some kind...that the trainees might employ to destroy Chinese by the

hundreds." The CIA declined, but McCarthy noted that Wangdu "did take to demolition training with renewed

enthusiasm" and became quite taken with bazookas and mortars.

WAR at the TOP of the WORLD. By: Bageant, Joe, Military History, 08897328, Feb2004, Vol. 20, Issue 6

[Jamyang]

Please ignore the unreasonable Chinese comments.

Just learn the following words.

BOE RANGZEN!
(boe = Tibet, rangzen = Free)

This is the Tibetan language.

It is NOT Chinese.

They can say what they want about their country.

And we will say what we like about ours.

BOE RANGZEN.

Tashi Delek
Jamyang.

[Neddy]

What a lovely "debate" this is, with all the China blogosphere's trolls pitching in! Which part of “The Dalai Lama is right. The Chinese are wrong. The Tibetan people are not happy.” do you not understand?
I do not condone violence in any form or shape, but what do you expect from a little guy when you push him in the corner with no way out? Use your brains, stop parroting the CCP drivel! The Party is reaping what it has sown for half a century, and everyone can see it, except the "useful idiots" and shills.

[Lysol]

For the past 150 years until 1997, why there was no one, especially in England and the U.S., protested and supported for a 'free' Hong Kong?

[nanheyangrouchuan]

I am that festering bed sore on the human race's backside.

[Neddy]

The world has changed in the last 150 years. Have you noticed? Besides, what makes you believe it is free now (and don't say "relatively")?

[Lysol]

I didn't say it is 'free' now. I said why there were no PROTESTS for a FREE Hong Kong?

[Neddy]

And I said "The world has changed in the last 150 years." Outside of China, anyway. Got it?

[Pffefer]

Neddy,

You tell me who was doing the killing. CNN has shown video footage of Tibetan mobs (with some "monks" taking part) smashing stores, and I have read from western media that Han and Hui Chinese were attacked in Lhasa. A European was driven out of a Tibetan family because he did not agree with the notion that all Han and Muslims must be removed. I guess you are with the mobs and the radicals, eh?

The Chinese government simply can't win. If it doesn't build roads, bridges and schools and develop the economy, it is being accused of "holding back Tibet and making it a further backward area". If it does everything mentioned above, it is being accused of engaging in cultural genocide. What can they do?

China should take a page from Russia. During and after the first and second Chechen War, the west gave Russia an ear-full. What happened since? Russia still stands.

[Pffefer]

By the way, Neddy, trolls? Is the defintion of a "troll" being someone who doesn't share the blanket hatred and condemnation of China and its government and everything they do? Then by all means I am a troll. :-)

I am just amazed that why so many people have not taken the high road by leaving the country of the "trolls".

[cc]

Many Tibetans and their supporters behind seem not to realised that by making Chinese government/China lose face does not necessarily mean that they will win. It is a lose-lose situation as far as I can see.

This latest demonstration of " peaceful protest" only drives other Chinese who might be potentially sympathetic with their cause (to some extent) and whose support is also vital to opposition. It just shows them a scary picture that what would ensue should Tibet one day became independent.

[cc]

Neddy,

Your way of arguing is a bit childish, to say the least.

The world surely has changed in the last 150 years. Besides this is a pointless statement, (when didn't the world change during any 150 years on this planet?), it only, at most, says something about why there is protest NOW. However, it still dones't explain why there was no protest in the PAST 150 years.

This bit of logic might be a bit overwhelming for you, I understand.

[farooq]

history bears testament that,the strong has suppressed the weak,but the suppression has been like a glass on water,squeeze it,and it will only spurt out...yes the chinese govt has been harsh,not only to tibeans,the uygurs in former east turkestan, the falun gong practioners,but all the strong empires of the past have been guilty of similar oppression...what have americans recently done to iraq??....its hypocrtical ..but that are the rules of war,big fish gulps small fish,the weaker animals in the jungle r always at the mercy of the strong,and these rules of jungle have been applicable to mankind from day one of documented civilisation..the tibetans are less in number and the migration policy of CCP will dilute them in numbers..
those who oppose chinese rule will have to wait for the CCP to crumble,like all the empires of the past,and then enjoy their freedom..

[IC]

Low IQ people behave alike. Only people who behave like those in Africa are........

Anyhow, arguing with idiots are waste of time.

The world will be better place if we all follow true genius's advice. Only peace can be achieved if whole Tibet have Chinese Han as dominating population.

Galton, the greatest science genius, has known this better.

http://galton.org/letters/africa-for-chinese/AfricaForTheChinese.htm

[IC]

Chinese Han are more civilized people. Even in Japanese colonies, one Japanese policeman was good enough for a Taiwanese village. However, 5 or 10 policmen were needed for other village in Japan colonies.

Here, we talk about law-abiding and displine, crime rate ect.

[Otto Kerner]

Junhui,

Your arguments seem to boil down to either "two wrongs make a right" or "the only law is the law of the jungle". Why bother to discuss at all then? Other people are talking about human rights and basic decency, and you seem to be on a whole different page. Why don't you try talking to some Scottish people or some indigenous American people and see how they feel about you using their history to try to justify what happens in Tibet?

You also seem to justify the Chinese occupation of Tibet on the grounds of material progress there. Isn't this the same argument given, for example by the British for their occupation of Hong Kong, or by the Japanese for their occuption of Taiwan? It's true that the PRC spends some money trying to improve Tibet, and without that aid Tibet may or may not be able to develop an equally good or better economy -- but people do care about some things other than just economic matters.

The idea that Han Chinese people in this case are being punished for there success is a strange assumption. Do you know of any examples of Tibetans leaving Tibet to accost Chinese people in China for their success? The simpler explanation is that the Hans are resented because they are seen as supporters of the Chinese government and its heavy-handed rule.

P.S. - Several news stories have reported that the Dalai Lama has condemned the violence by Tibetans. What makes you think he hasn't?

[Pffefer]

Otto, has the Dalai Lama really condemned the violence by the Tibetan mobs? All I have been reading out of the western media is him accusing the Chinese of "rule of terror" and "genocide", the usual stuff.

[Mal - native Scot!]

Junhui -- Why should monks and Tibetans not have as much an understanding of the real world as you? You insult their intelligence and then say you have "nothing against them". To bring up William Wallace, someone dead for many centuries, shows you have little contact with modern reality. Most Scottish people are happy with the union that has been achieved in the UK. They also, now, have their own parliament and can vote for separation if they wish--something not possible for the Tibetan people. (Note I'm half English, half Scottish and born on the border between the two countries -- so feel I'm qualified to say that you have so little knowledge on this subject that you should remain quiet about it until you learn more).

In the UK we are, largely, 'taken care of' and have time to look outwards and see where there is a great evil in the World (the current Chinese government) oppressing people (the Tibetans).

You say:"China should really stop choosing religious leaders (I will admit that China has that wrong)." If it has something so large and fundamental as that wrong, then what's does it have right? "The Dalai Lama will return and bring salvation? No; those monks carrying cell phones; would have been non-existant." How do you know? The Dalai Lama has a great interest in technology and democracy and might have led his country to great liberation and freedom. You making this comment shows that it is you living in a fantasy world where your main maxim is "my country right or wrong." Exactly the attitude that Nazis took in Germany in the 1930s.

"They complain because of their poverty; they complain because the "Han" have it better than them. It's a common occurrence for the Han people to be punished for success" Punished for taking over their country? This is like arguing that the Poles were wrong for being upset about Nazis taking over their country. "These naive Tibetans think that if the Dalai Lama comes back; they will be successful; life will become more free and the grains will somehow multiply?" Why not? Even at worst it's better to fail in ones own way than to have others succeed by exploiting you and throwing you their scraps.

"There is nothing worse then another theocracy." The Dalai Lama has said he wants democracy and that he is happy not to have total separation -- just a chance for Tibetans to choose their own future. Like the Scots in the UK -- belonging to the 'mother country', but with their own parliament, laws, education system, self-determination,...

"... religious oppression; fanaticism; and stagnation." Exactly what the Chinese government has imposed on them.

"I am a Chinese living in the United States. Let me tell you; all though we are outnumbered by various other cultures; our culture does not fade. They don't teach Chinese in schools and they don't have a Chinese language TV on basic television. Cultural assimilation only happens if we let it happen. Culture is on the inside." This is a good point, something the communist Chinese should listen to -- Tibetan culture is great, and so they will likely find themselves in trouble for millenia if they don't give them freedom now. "if they will not do NON-VIOLENT things to promote their culture then I detest it." The Dalai Lama has opposed the violence. But young people, especially, are likely to take up violence when oppressed. Like the violent American revolutionaries who kicked out the UK! Like the violent Chinese boxer rebellion which opposed the UK in China!

[Mal - native Scot!]

Junhui -- Why should monks and Tibetans not have as much an understanding of the real world as you? You insult their intelligence and then say you have "nothing against them". To bring up William Wallace, someone dead for many centuries, shows you have little contact with modern reality. Most Scottish people are happy with the union that has been achieved in the UK. They also, now, have their own parliament and can vote for separation if they wish--something not possible for the Tibetan people. (Note I'm half English, half Scottish and born on the border between the two countries -- so feel I'm qualified to say that you have so little knowledge on this subject that you should remain quiet about it until you learn more).

In the UK we are, largely, 'taken care of' and have time to look outwards and see where there is a great evil in the World (the current Chinese government) oppressing people (the Tibetans).

You say:"China should really stop choosing religious leaders (I will admit that China has that wrong)." If it has something so large and fundamental as that wrong, then what's does it have right? "The Dalai Lama will return and bring salvation? No; those monks carrying cell phones; would have been non-existant." How do you know? The Dalai Lama has a great interest in technology and democracy and might have led his country to great liberation and freedom. You making this comment shows that it is you living in a fantasy world where your main maxim is "my country right or wrong." Exactly the attitude that Nazis took in Germany in the 1930s.

"They complain because of their poverty; they complain because the "Han" have it better than them. It's a common occurrence for the Han people to be punished for success" Punished for taking over their country? This is like arguing that the Poles were wrong for being upset about Nazis taking over their country. "These naive Tibetans think that if the Dalai Lama comes back; they will be successful; life will become more free and the grains will somehow multiply?" Why not? Even at worst it's better to fail in ones own way than to have others succeed by exploiting you and throwing you their scraps.

"There is nothing worse then another theocracy." The Dalai Lama has said he wants democracy and that he is happy not to have total separation -- just a chance for Tibetans to choose their own future. Like the Scots in the UK -- belonging to the 'mother country', but with their own parliament, laws, education system, self-determination,...

"... religious oppression; fanaticism; and stagnation." Exactly what the Chinese government has imposed on them.

"I am a Chinese living in the United States. Let me tell you; all though we are outnumbered by various other cultures; our culture does not fade. They don't teach Chinese in schools and they don't have a Chinese language TV on basic television. Cultural assimilation only happens if we let it happen. Culture is on the inside." This is a good point, something the communist Chinese should listen to -- Tibetan culture is great, and so they will likely find themselves in trouble for millenia if they don't give them freedom now. "if they will not do NON-VIOLENT things to promote their culture then I detest it." The Dalai Lama has opposed the violence. But young people, especially, are likely to take up violence when oppressed. Like the violent American revolutionaries who kicked out the UK! Like the violent Chinese boxer rebellion which opposed the UK in China!

[Chris]

>>Did you know that Tibet invaded China? Go read up on Tibetan Chinese history. It's a never ending struggle to see who owns what.

This isn't just a territory war. It's a religious war. Tibet, arguably, *is* the religion of the lamas. And China, arguably, *is* the religion of Mao. China is determined to either appropriate the religion of the lamas in the name of Chinese nationalism (via appointing its own, loyalist lama when the present one dies) or to exterminate it by repression and attrition. The lamas, meanwhile, are determined to practice their faith and their ancient way of life, which requires a degree of freedom and autonomy that China has been unwilling to allow them. For the past decade or so, China has had the opportunity to negotiate with a man (the Dalai Lama) who was willing to submit to their rule non-violently so long as Tibet is allowed the religious freedom it desires. Instead, the PCR has chosen to become increasingly repressive. Now that the Dalai Lama has handed over his political control to the Tibetan parliament, and his influence over the young radicals is waning, the window of opportunity for both the PCR and for Tibet has closed.

[Junhui]

Aside from insulting anyones opinion; I would like to bring out the fact somethings just take time. In some countries were things are apparently "taken care of" and the people have time on their hands observed where there is great evil in the world I applaud the success of your union.

Since your part of the world was able to form a more perfect union of race, religion and economic stability, why can't another region try on it's own given the same amount of time?

The point is NOT to point out WHAT William Wallace did; but to point out the fact that something similar did happen and how long it took for peace to reign. No one wants to live in the past; of course not. But to ignore the past we will be doomed to repeat it in the future or present.

And no; I am not Tibetan, nor am I Scot. I don't know what the Scots feel for I am not there; but for those of you who feel like you "understand" the Tibetans. What makes you so sure that ALL Tibetans feel that way? Are you somehow...Tibetan?

While I'm at it; I could be wrong since I went to public school here in the United States; but from what I was taught; I believed that Democracy included a way for THE PEOPLE to choose their leaders and for the PEOPLE to choose their religion. What do you get when you put a group of guys together that chant a mantra all day and select a leader from amongst each other...the communist party; oh wait also sounds like what the Tibetan monks do.

Hrmm...What of religious freedom? Thats an interesting topic. If a country had a spiritual leader of a certain type; wouldn't that make that country fall under that certain religion? What if you don't want to be represented by that leader? Do you move? Do I even get to choose? Would you have a religious leader for every religion?

Comparing Nazi Germany to Communist China is somewhat far fetched. I don't know if the Chinese people make it a habit of carrying out racial killings; I seem to see the Communist Party oppressing people of all races; including its own tribesmen (Han). What makes Tibetan oppression more important? Is it even called Tibetan oppression? Since China oppresses ALL its citizens why make a special categorical distinction between the two?

So far; the only racial killings I seen are the Tibetan protesters hunting down normal Chinese civilians based on their ethnicity. I wouldn't want to judge a whole ethnicity based on the actions of a few. No one does that...right?

Lastly; I did not know business men and people who practice capitalism still worshiped Mao; if it is so then this event might just be a "religious war" as some commentators have mentioned. Last I seen however; it was the poor; less informed villagers who still worshiped Mao as a means of hope. Not that they are not intellectually deficient; they just haven't received the memo yet.

[lakewood florist]

i didnt know that there is an ongoing trouble brewing there.

[Otto Kerner]

Pfeffer: there were some news stories which reported that the Dalai Lama had condemned the violence by Tibetans, but I didn't see any direccft quotes from him until this story:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3574672.ece

"On violence, it's wrong. We should not develop anti-Chinese feelings. We must live together side by side"

[Junhui]

That was a nice read Otto. I find it kind of humorous that he had to be called out before he said anything about the violence. The panchen condemned the violence before the riots were even over. Makes me wonder if the Dalai Lama has an ulterior motive other than "independence".

[Frank k.]

what was God thinking, mankind SUX!!! God must not be perfect, he gave mankind a second chance and he still SUX!!! I'm sorry for not being religiously correct, I'm just calling him God for reference, you go ahead and call him by your name for him.

[Teo Chun]

It saddens me at times like this to be known as a Chinese and to have people like JunHui, voiceup and chinese buddisht as from the same descend. No country has the right to go into another country and tell the "original" resident there how to live. That is the basics of it. It does not matter what anyone says about it, that is not right. I just do not know why some people are just so narrow minded arguing about history, living standards etc, etc. People like Jun, voiceup and all others that says the tibet residents is not right has definitely not felt what it is like to be "controlled". No matter how you look at it, nobody has the right to go into another's "home" and treat it like it is theirs to run and manage.

[Junhui]

Teo, from what I am reading; it seems like you are saying no one has the right to claim a country and tell the countrymen what to do. And I would like to further add; who has the right to claim my house and tell me what to do? My government. No one has the right to do it; but it just happens. It's the way of society.

Yes you say that we are narrow minded because we talk about history. If we don't talk about history, then how is Tibet even a country? It's currently a province of the People's Republic of China. Unless you talk about history; Tibet has no grounds of legitimacy.

Western news says "Tibet was an independent state prior to the 20th century". That's true about almost ALL states. Like the Kingdom of Yue; I think you as a cultured Chinese person should know of. But the Kingdom of Yue, once an independent state, was conquered and now is apart of "Han" China. Does China have a right to own that region? I want my people to be free, since I am technically (historically) YUE. The dialect I speak is YUE. But like all things; a country is just a border. It's either a group of people decide to work together and progress or get swallowed up by a bigger group of people.

People don't tell us how to live; we choose how we live. The Tibetans can live in their slavery-like feudal pre-Chinese dominated society if they wish. The Chinese don't tell the Tibetans to use supermarkets, Chinese definitely don't tell Tibetans to trade in their horses for motor-cycles. It's called free-will. They chose to adapt to the new society. Is it a better standard of living? You have eyes to see the truth.

And contrary to your belief that I'm not controlled, I am. I am controlled by society. I am controlled by my parents. I am controlled by my government. I can't go out there and burn an American flag (not that I would). Some unlucky people are controlled by media. Which one are you?

I don't know your stance on the situation at hand, but I do see that you support self-determination. That's okay because you CHOOSE to believe that way.

[Teo Chun]

JunHui, From my recollection of history, it seems that Tibet is an independent country until communist China ‘strolled’ in and took over running the place like its own, which in my opinion is not right. It seems to me from your writing that you accept the fact “the mighty should bully the weak”. As in your saying, “it is the rule of society” which I must agree even though, sad to say, is indeed happening all over the world but that does not make that 'right' or justifiable. It just so happens that the voices whom disapproves of this has no power to change this fact. I guess that you, living in the United States is lucky in the sense that there is still some justice from occurrence like this, but i will bet that you will be singing a different tune if you are in the receiving end of the being 'controlled'. In that i mean not being controlled by parents (who by the way in most cases has your well being in mind), i think a better comparison should be an armed robber coming into your home and taking your food, giving you leftovers to eat and telling you how to live. And the worst fact is that this robber does not leave and there is nothing the police or anyone can do about it, so you suffer every single day. Now THAT, will be a better comparison (in the case of Tibet) in my opinion, as compared to being controlled by society or government or parents….. which is feeble comparison. Then again, everyone is entitled to their own belief no matter how strange it is.

"Who has the right to say that a supermarket or motorbike is good for the user but the user themselves."

[Liang]

Teo Chun, You confuse between injustice in the society and the issue of independence. If we follow your logic why don’t we let Xin-Jiang, Manchuria, Hubei (where my grand parents came) independent?
So many nationalities in China, let them all adopting democracy like in the West. Do you know what China will look like: AFRICA.
Nothing wrong with African; the lesson is that we should not impose one’s believe or system to other. They were wise enough to look after themselves until colonialization by the West and their misguided leaders who thought to be able to solve the problems in their society by adopting Democracy.
Talking about FREEDOM, tell that to those thousand who were kicked out from their homes because of Subprime Mortgage debacle; while homeless they should pray not getting sick because there is no health insurance (unlike in China).
Well, you might agree with George Bush who said: “ they are homeless, but they have their FREEDOM”, keep that freedom for yourself, but please stop hectoring other as how beautiful the so called Western system is.

By the way since the Tibetan exiles have lived under Dalai Lama, so called Democracy, for 50 years why they seem so un-happy? Do you really believe that with free Tibet their live will be changed? Happy-ever-after. Where the money comes from? Tourism for Westerners?

[Insider]

Teo: Why don't you compare iraqis are controlled under gunpoints and would be getting killed in a short notice by Americans?

[Teo Chun]

To Liang: There seem to be some confusion in your understanding of my post. Firstly, I agree with you that Manchuria should be granted independance and no one should impose one's believe onto another. Secondly, i have never insisted on how beautiful western systems are, in any of my post (my advice is for you to read properly before accusation)On the topic of People who were kicked out of their homes because of subprime morgages; I believe they are victims of their own miscalculations. You see, I believe in the theory of self realization, where we have to know where we stand in society and live within our means. Example of this would be: If i cannot afford to eat in restaurants every week then i will cook at home, or if i really want to buy that beautiful cellphone, i will ask myself do i really need it. The thing is that China has no right to control the way Tibetans live their lives which is not China's to say in the first place, it does not matter if Tibetans are happy with their lives, or if they will live happily ever after or where the money comes from. Just leave them alone to take care of their own problems be it good or bad and if China really wants to help - advice them (which they can accept or reject). The main point is that they decide and not someone else.

To Insider: I do not compared Iraqis because that was not the topic here, but if you were to ask me to compare, i will say the same thing as i have told all others, I do not agree that anyone should go into another's home/country/domain and tell the other person what to do. That is not right, be it Iraqis, Tibetans, Manchurians, Taiwanese or any others that you can think of. Basically that is what I feel, which let me emphasize again to Liang and Insider, Please read and understand my post properly before making comments that might ridicule yourself in the end.