More troubles along the torch relay

Here’s more fodder to get people worked up on Tibet and the Summer Olympic Games, as if emotions weren’t high enough already.

The Olympic torch relay made its troubled journey through Nagano, Japan, and Seoul, South Korea, over the weekend and cruises trouble-free through Pyongyang today.

A Chinese student was bloodied during confrontations between pro-Chinese and pro-Tibet protesters in Nagano. I don’t know the circumstances. You can see him in this photo. If you sympathize with the Chinese side, it is enough to make one’s blood pressure rise. 

The Kyodo news story about the torch relay said a huge police presence along the route “dissipated any festive mood in Nagano.”

That probably sums up the whole global torch relay.

Then the torch hit Seoul, and clashes between the many sides were more open, according to this New York Times story. Only Tibet wasn’t the only issue. In Seoul, it was also the question of how China treats North Korean refugees that flee across the border.

“When lone protesters demanded that China stop repatriating North Korean refugees, they were quickly surrounded by jeering Chinese. Near the park, Chinese students surrounded and beat a small group of protesters, news reports said.”

“In another scuffle, at the city center where the five-hour torch run ended, Chinese surrounded several Tibetans and South Korean supporters who unfurled pro-Tibet banners, and kicked and punched them, witnesses said.”

I’m still sort of haunted by a passage in a story from Australia’s Daily Telegraph following the torch relay in Canberra last Thursday. The perpetrator is a Chinese nationalist. But it could’ve been the other way around, too. What I find abhorrent is the use of a child as a way to bait another person who differs in viewpoint.

But the fierce display of nationalistic pride by a pro-Chinese crowd of up to 10,000 caught everyone by surprise.

Ask Karuna Bajracharya, a 26-year-old Nepalese pro-Tibet supporter who now lives on the South Coast.

He says he was walking toward Parliament House when, ``I saw a mob of Chinese men. They started yelling and hitting me with their flags.
“There was a father with his son who was about five or six years old and the kid was hitting me. His father actually said to him, `Keep hitting him.'

“Then he said to me, ‘If you don't like it, hit him in the head.' He wanted me to hit his son, so he could retaliate and the whole thing could get out of hand.”

What have we come to?

Comments

[James]

Karuna Bajracharya's story is conspicuously far-fetched but funny. I really don't get it what this Nepalese was up to.

[James]

Karuna Bajracharya's story is conspicuously far-fetched but funny. I really don't get it what this Nepalese was up to.

[Y]

Tim,

According to eye witness posted on a chinese web site not controlled by the chinese government, the student was hurt by a gorup of Japanese right-wing activists wearing WWWII Japanese uniform. They were fighting over a chinese flag.

If you really believe what you cited at the end of your post, I am certain that you have not experienced the feeling of being a parent yet.

[Y]

OK. So much for torch relay and I think somebody is going to be disappointed that it is all finished.

But I guess the following slide show about the end of the world is somewhat related to this topic. There is no violence at all, but takes a bit time to load. Enjoy.

http://www.endofworld.net/

[Y]

Tim,

Again, for the story you cited at the end of your post, if you have no clue what I am talking about, check this with your parents to see their reaction.

[paolang]

Come on, Tim! Let's be honest. Tell me if you are really "haunted" or just exited by the Napalese Tibet supporter's story. I guess this is the kind of stories the western media are looking for. Who cares if it is true anyway. As long as the message is satisfying, publish it.

[jeff]

I don't believe Tibet protest and Olympic boycott are masterminded by Western powers. Any politicians with their brains larger than their balls would expect the reactions from those young students. Even CCP is always trying to hide most of the info of Tibet movement using the Great Firewall. Anybody can get any hit by searching "Carrefour" in Chinese?

[Tim J]

Y, I have children. You must be new to this blog, otherwise you would know that. Do you have kids there in British Columbia?

[Y]

Tim,

I do have kids. Otherwise, I am not in the position to ask you the question.

British Columbia is in Canada, but nice try.

[Tim J]

Some of the posts on this blog have been extremely critical, bordering on nasty, in the last month. Out of curiosity, I started checking the IP addresses of some of you who are the most critical, and to my interest I discover that some of you are at major universities in North America, places like UC Berkeley, University of Victoria in British Columbia. Others appear to be employed at major companies in places like Georgia and New Jersey. Here's my challenge to you: Let's keep the dialogue civil. Let's pretend you wouldn't post anything on this blog that you wouldn't post on the university or corporate website with your name attached. Better yet, why don't you identify yourselves just as I am completely identified? If you have an honest question about why something happens in the "Western media" that is a common whipping boy, I'll answer it -- if you identify yourself. Otherwise, post on in anonymity, but you won't get an answer.

[Junhui]

I'll identify myself first. University of California, San Diego here. I've been holding a lot in so please let me rant for a little bit.

The news is disgusting. Forget western media, forget all media. People need to piece together the truth for themselves. You can't believe what you see or read for that matter anymore. You just have to know the facts and piece things together. I'm not surprised the Japanese protested against China. Japan is afraid of a stronger China but so are a lot of people in the world. I mean with all those uneven treaties back before the KMT. Everyone knows they pissed off China. A strong vengeful China, who would want that?

The other day I was driving and listening to MPR. God forbid; everything was about China. There was not one good thing on there. Not one.

Every time I surf the web, or go to youtube. Someone talks about human rights and tiananmen square. Yes, that event did happen; everyone in China knows that happened. That guy standing in front of the tank who was the symbol of "standing up to the man"; well he never got trampled on by the tank. just in case some people though he did. My college professor was in that rally. He got trampled but not by military; but by his own fellow students. If you must know the truth about that rally go ask the people that were in it. Same goes for anything else. (i.e. Tibet)

China is changing fast. Everyone knows that; and everyone who refuses to accept it will just be left behind. Yes, China has committed many atrocities in the past; WHICH GOVERNMENT HASN'T? Interment camps? Concentration camps? Segregation? Apartheid? How come everyone can overlook those things but not Tiananmen? China has not committed anything like it since.

Korean refugees? Yes China might be a little bit hard on them. But in a country with 1.3 billion people with rising food cost. You can barely feed your own people; how can you afford to feed EVERYONE who decides to run across the border. If the United States can turn back Mexicans (a lot of immigrants, or refugees rather, die while trying to come over). Why can't Chinese turn back Koreans?

As far as Tibet issue goes, anyone with 2 eyes can see its a sham. The Dalai Lama, I have lost faith in this man. He craves power. His building in India is not enough. He wants Tibet, in fact he wants Greater Tibet (whatever that is, seriously you want Qinghai and Sichuan? Give me a break). This man has greed written all over his head. If he was on my doorstep he would not be welcome into house. He has caused suffering out countless lives. He says a "free Tibet" will bring democracy; okay I ask "how will the Tibetans elect their political leader?" This is a question a lot of people forget to ask. The title Dalai Lama, it can't be voted for. Religious freedom? How about the freedom to practice only Buddhism.

Okay, I think I am done. Thank you for listening. If you want to debate; discuss or hear more views. I am here everyday.

[Junhui]

p.s. just in case. the views I have stated above do not represent the views held by the University of California, San Diego...just me.

[paolang]

To be honest, Tim, as one of your critics, I would rather continue to post anonymous commentary, which is one the greatest privileges that the internet provides. While anonymity may open the door for irresponsible lies, it also allows underdogs to have their real voices heard, without worrying about being revenged in the real world power network in which they were vulnerable for possible abuse. However, as we all know, anonymity cannot prevent us from being identified by special agency. It just makes the identifying process a little bit more expensive. Therefore, nobody here is really immune to responsibility.

Instead of being annoyed by more criticisms, you might congratulate yourself for attracting more attention. I cherish the opportunity of having civil dialogue in your blog, which I hope will improve our mutual understanding, and I still respect your work.

[wgj]

The Nepalese claimed to have heard the Chinese farther tell his son: "Keep hitting him." Now do you think there are many "Chinese nationalist" out there who would speak to his son in English? Or does this Nepalese happen to speak Chinese?

Come on. This story is as believable as...

[A B]

"Let's keep the dialogue civil. Let's pretend you wouldn't post anything on this blog that you wouldn't post on the university or corporate website with your name attached. Better yet, why don't you identify yourselves just as I am completely identified?"

Hear, Hear.

As for identifying myself.

I offer this:

Around the first or second week of May, I will invite everyone who read / comment / write / etc. this blog to meet me IN PERSON at a public place (Hotel Bar?) in Beijing.

Notwithstanding the generalities of the foregoing, the invitation is being extended to Messrs. Johnson, his staff, colleagues, avid readers of his blog in Beijing like the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Ministry of State Security, etc., and anyone else who care to show up.

Bring your own expense account!

P.S. Tim - a personal observation - it is generally accepted by public bloggers that you get a lot of hate mail. Even blogs like www.dooce.com, which is totally harmless politically, get them. To not expect some nastiness or extremely critical comments is unrealistic. If you believe in what you are doing, those things don't get to you.

Take a look at the WSJ article about www.dooce.com and they deal with angry hate mail --- you will have a great laugh.

On many occasions in these commentaries, I have expressed concerns about the rabidness of some people, sadness and regrets that with the relaxation of controls in China have allowed things to bubble up like threats to foreign journalists in China --- which in the old days would have seen perpetrators swiftly and harshly punished.

It is pointless to ask commentators to identify themselves, though any competent person will know that IP address tracing is a child's play. So is basic techniques of IP and NIC spoofing. So the concealed identity is not intented to deceive you --- in fact --- you will note that the email address I use is valid and if you so wish, you could have contacted me at any time via that address.

I do hope that you do not regard my comments as being anything but civil and humorous, and occasionally, having some substance.

Sincerely,

A B

[Mike Lascelles]

I was at the Canberra torch relay, or rather I was in Canberra during the relay. I decided against trying to see the relay because the crowds of flag waving Chinese nationalists created an unpleasant and unwelcoming atmosphere.
I didn't see the incident that Garry Linnell's article describes, but I saw similar ones. It made me extremely angry to see peaceful pro-Tibet supporters being intimidated and denied the chance to express their views by ethnic Chinese who blocked their signs, shouted over them and in some cases pushed them around.
Chinese won the battle and lost the public relations war. Garry Linnell is a respected journalist in Australia - his views represent those of the majority of Australians who found the mob antics of the Chinese repugnant.

[whatever]

Tim,

It's funny that you start to lose it over some critical comments, while you think it's ok for Jack Cafferty to call the Chinese (or the Chinese government) goons and thugs, expecting all Chinese to view this as western freedom of speech?

what gives?

the question to me is you've never addressed any of the quesitons/critiques head-on but resort to checkiing IPs to maybe intimidate some people? the fact your research is very shoddy before you jump to conclusions are there for everyone who reads your blog to see. you live in China, but you've never really captured the true complexity of the country. like everybody else the picture is painted black and white. even some true believers in journalistic integrity in the west are lamenting this

yes what we have come to? the point is what has the media done?

[jeff]

Tim,

You know why Chinese both inside and outside become critical? They don't like to see anyone to split China. I will have the same feeling if anyone is trying to split Hawaii from America. I will ask my son to join the US NAvy to fight for Hawaii. It is a tradition of Chinese culture. It doesn't mean that Chinese support CCP.

[A B]

Let's take a look at the fairness and impartiality of the quotes in Tim's post above from Linnell's article:

``I saw a mob of Chinese men. They started yelling and hitting me with their flags."

The implied insinuation of this quote is that the ethnic Chinese people who are "pro China" are Chinese, not Australian nationals. Certainly not LOYAL Australian nationals.

What is remarkable is that Tim did not quote the ending paragraph of the Linnell article, where it states:

"When the band launched into a rendition of Advance Australia Fair, red flags continued to flutter. Then a strange silence descended on Commonwealth Park. No one sang along. There were very few in the crowd who seemed to know the words."

There is no doubt that it is entirely appropriate to point out the lack of respect, if that is the case, for the National Anthem and the lack of Australian flags. I would have jumped on that too.

However, silence is not necessarily a lack of respect, though a more civil and better acculturated crowd SHOULD HAVE , at the very least, respectfully stood by, and certainly it would have been welcome to have the joined the singing of the Australian National Anthem.

However, there is NO factual basis that this Australian journalist, no matter how respected, to make the claim that "very few in the crowd seem to know the words" to the Australian National Anthem.

To conclude his article with this unsupported fact and innuendo is the raw, naked face of Australian racism.

To have Lascelles join in this chorus about how "peaceful pro-Tibet supporters" being "intimidated" by "ethnic Chinese" which he later refers to as Chinese as distinct from Australians, is blatant, clear, racism of the first order: The message is, "Chinese" or "ethnic Chinese" are not Australians, regardless of whether they are Australians.

To have quoted Linnell's piece approvingly in this blog without seeing the fundamental, gross, and naked racism shows a blind spot no different than the inability to see the racism against African-Americans in Tim's home country the United States of America.

Is it a wonder that there are virtually no blacks in the expatriate American community at the US Embassy (except for the Marine Guards), in the American Foreign Correspondent Press Corps, and in many American firms (but not all) who have American expatriate staff based in China?

The greatest value of an outsider / foreign correspondent is to let people see themselves from a different perspective. Unfortunately, Americans are often no less blind in their own blind spots than the Chinese.

In view of this public expression of racism in a major Australian paper, might I say that racist Australia is the place with a real public relations problem?

Here is a hint to the Hon. Prime Minister Rudd.

If it is your intent to develop a good relation with China and to successfully assimilate and forge Australians out of your very large ethnic Chinese population, it may be beneficial for you to think very hard about how these racist attitudes might affect your plan.

Why.... it was just a few days ago that Tim was reporting on subtle and not so subtle discrimination against ethnic Tibetans in China by Congress man Peolsi, which drew a comment here about the pot calling the kettle white.

Somewhat off topic.... it is contingent on the competent authority to reasonably anticipate potential "non-peaceful" outbreaks whenever groups with diametrically opposed views are brought together in a public setting.

Wouldn't it have been nice if Australian police had taken reasonable efforts to keep the demonstrators from different camps separated, and certainly, provide a visible presence to deter any hot heads?

Unlike Lascelles, I do not believe that ANY group have a monopoly on hotheads and crazies. Indeed, it is most notable that Lascelles seem blind, deaf, and dumb to the outbreaks of violence by "pro Tibet" protesters in France and elsewhere.

We pay dearly for police protection precisely because even with the most peaceful intent, it is possible for a few hot heads to get out of control.

Remember the American that was allegedly assaulted in Wuhan?

One Chinese hothead. A Chinese crowd that chanted slogans at him, and then MANY Chinese that went out of their way to protect him and escort him away. Including the Police.

I would call that pretty good but the Chinese need to sharpen up their peaceful demonstration etiquette.

That means: If you have taken out Citizenship and swore the oath of Citizenship, you show up in the demonstration with Australian / or whatever country / flags, you stand respectfully, and if you can, join in the singing of the National Anthem, and you express your differences in peacefully and accordance with both local custom and the law.

That means that in Australia, you would have had to apply for a "protest / demonstration permit".

Did either the "pro Tibet" or "pro China" camp apply for a permit?

Tsk Tsk Tsk.

[A B]

whatever,

"The question to me is you've never addressed any of the quesitons/critiques head-on but resort to checkiing IPs to maybe intimidate some people?"

It is the prerogative of the blog master or owner to address whatever they choose to address.

It is also their prerogative to keep track of IPs, etc. and use the information as they see fit.

I think you need to understand and sympathize with Tim's position where violent threats have poured into his office and have caused his colleagues offices to be temporarily closed (that probably mean a bomb threat).

Tim is in country with children and family, and understandably, he is nervous not only about his own, but his family's safety.

Sure, he could have done a better job, like the Carrefore mob attack story, but it is impossible to be a journalist without now and then making a few mistakes.

So can I suggest you show some tolerance for his failings, and his weaknesses, his blind spots, and above all, mutual respect for someone who is, by all accounts, doing a fine job under trying circumstances.

There is absolutely NO excuse for threats against his person to be tolerated by any civilized individual.

Sympathy, tolerance, understanding and mutual respect will win "whatever" many more friends.

Let us all help Tim do his job !

[A B]

Postscript about the Australian Daily Mail Editorial by Linnell:

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23595026-5001021,00.html

Look at the comments:

The first one states:

"I find this article some what racist."

Posted by: samtom of Canada 1:01pm today

Now, isn't it interesting that Tim didn't see that?

Tim see Chinese blind spots, and we see his.

Together we are both stronger.

[Jarrod]

Most Chinese immigrants try to speak to their young children only in Chinese, so it's very interesting that how a crazed, overzealous Chinese nationalist would speak English to his son at a particularly heated moment.

It's time the media starts to use words like "supposed" and "alleged" to qualify testimonials offered by both sides and not just the Chinese side.

It's unbelievable how the Australian new article used the phrase "ugly face" over and over again in reference to the Chinese protesters. I imagine this wouldn't go over well with African Americans if words like these are used to describe their current effort to shut down NYC.

[A B]

Jarrod,

The equivalent terms for African-Americans are:

< censored >

I could write it, but if it got past the automated censors, it wouldn't stay up long.

Not that I wish it to happen.... but wouldn't it be funny if race riots broke out in Newark (the most likely place), or the in the NYC burbs....

If I only worked for MOFA.... I would be pre-drafting a Diplomatic Note to the United States Government admonishing them to end the systematic system of racial discrimination and segregation, to not use force against peaceful demonstrators, and to improve human rights and respect human dignity.

That will then be followed by donations to NAACP, etc. raised from concerned Chinese citizens.

Can you imagine the optics of having Africans peacefully demonstrating outside of US Embassies, Businesses, etc. abroad for human rights?

What if the Black Marine Guards defected???

[newmex]

I think Tim is one of the finest reporters out there, though I've only been reading his stuff for a short while. I understand the frustration of people who think the "Western media" is biased against China. It's something I've heard from many people, of many political persuasions. However, until China has a relatively free press and more openness about freedom of speech, the West, like it or not, will retain a monopoly on much world opinion outside China (and outside the Middle East and perhaps Venezuela.)

The only way to fight bias in the news is with more unbiased news, open and accountable.

Tim's critics might also keep in mind that the news service Tim works for, and McKnight Ridder before it, has been credited with breaking controversial stories, and was the only major news outlet that questioned the Bush Administration's now-discredited claims about Iraq's WMD program.

[jeff]

newmex

I agree. If Tim is standing out against all the ugly things happened in China, majority of Chinese overseas will be on his side. If Tim is side with or even showing sympathy for those people intending to split China, It becomes very personal for almost all Chinese. Anything personal will not have rational in it. Chinese still have a lot to learn how to communicate with your people.