Tibet becomes an international matter

At nearly every press briefing by the Foreign Ministry lately, foreign journalists are told: Tibet is China’s internal matter. It is not an international issue.

That is wrong, and here is my evidence.

On Monday, the Paris City Council bestowed honorary citizenship on the Dalai Lama, a rare act only done a handful of times before and a stick in the eye to China. Click here and here and here for more.

President Nicolas Sarkozy opposed the move. He is rightfully worried that anti-French protests in China could get out of hand and hurt French interests.

Yet leading the charge is Paris Mayor Bertrand Delanoe, a Socialist who is a likely contender for the presidency in 2012. Delanoe called the Dalai Lama “a champion of peace.” He said Paris wanted “to show its support for the people of Tibet who are defending their most basic right to dignity, freedom and simply life.”

Delanoe is no fool. The Dalai Lama is very popular in France. So at the expense of France’s relations with China, he thinks this will help build his popularity. Perhaps this is brinksmanship. After all, French companies like the huge retailer Carrefour are getting hurt by calls for a boycott among Chinese consumers angry that gendarmes didn’t protect the flame better during the Olympic torch relay in Paris April 7. Protesters besieged the relay, and the flame had to be relit at least four times.

The Dalai Lama, by the way, will be in France in August, the same month as the Beijing Summer Games.

So let me ask: If the Tibet issue is merely an internal affair, why is it having an impact on the politics of France? Maybe what China means to say is that it’s a French internal matter.

Comments

[A B]

If Tibet is an internal matter, then clearly, one of the first questions that will arise is whether the Dai Lai Lama and his followers have the standing to challenge Beijing as Chinese nationals.

It appears that Dai Lai Lama and his followers in India have emigrated, and under such circumstances, may or may not (subject to confirmation by the Chinese government) have given up his Chinese nationality either by abandoning it, or by assuming another nationality such as Indian citizenship, or by officially renouncing it.

The Dai Lai Lama and his organization can help this debate by telling us what is indeed his nationality, and provide such details as to what nation's travel documents does he travel under (or none as the case may be).

Beijing need to make clear precisely what the citizenship status of the Dal Lai Lama is under Chinese law.

As Chinese citizens in good standing, the Dai Lai Lama and his followers would certainly have a different standing than if he is a foreign national.

How about some answers to these questions, Tim?

[anonymous]

Tim,

You just don't get it. If China and France switch their places, then riots in Paris would been an international matter.

Jungle rule: to lunch or to be lunched. To judge or to be judged. To be right or to be righted.

Get it?

[tim J]

A B, I'm told that the Dalai Lama travels on a yellow-colored document that is issued to all Tibetan refugees in India. Every time he leaves India, he has to send the document over to the ministry in charge of immigration and get an exit stamp placed in it. I would presume that under nationality, like all Tibetans, the document is marked "XXX," leaving the question open. But if asked, I presume he would say he is "Tibetan." He does not have Indian citizenship.

Anonymous: What's not to get?

[A B]

If I am not mistaken, the "yellow document" is a "certificate of identity" that is issued to people like refugees who could not get a passport from their own Government or who are "stateless".

An immediate question that arises is whether or not the Dai Lai Lama attempted to obtain a Chinese passport at any time, and certainly in the past 5 years and whether or not he was officially denied a passport by the Chinese government.

I am a bit troubled by his assertion that he is "Tibetan". A strict interpretation of that remark would support the Chinese position that he is a separatist since that is an ethnic / religious group in China but not a state anywhere.

It is not the same as saying he is a native New Yorker given the context of his past activities that included the violent overthrow of the Chinese government.

The mark XXX on the nationality of their travel documents issued by India would affirm that he refused to be classified as Chinese. India would probably refuse to list his Nationality as "Tibetan" because it is not a recognized state but would have gladly listed him as "Chinese". Thus the decision to leave it open by marking it XXX is a signal of his refusal to acknowledge Chinese sovereignty.

A valuable avenue to explore for a journalist is to put these questions directly to the Dai Lai Lama as to whether the above acts are consistent with his verbal claims that he does not seek independence and a Tibetan state.

If he is indeed seeking meaningful autonomy, he ought to be claiming status as "Tibetan-Chinese" and to at least, make the effort (at least once) to obtain and travel on a Chinese passport.

On the other hand, if he is indeed seeking secession, he would not acknowledge Chinese authority over him by either applying for (which the Chinese may refuse to issue) and if he got it, using a Chinese passport.

For him to travel with XXX on the Nationality notation of a Certificate of Identity would, I am afraid, be a tacit acknowledgment that he is indeed a separatist because it says he declined to have the Indian Government list him as Chinese.

I would think that the Dai Lai Lama need to align his claims that he does not seek independence with what he actually does with his own travel document first in order to give his case a bit of credibility.

This is particularly an issue because the facts are that he did participate in a US Government (and others) sponsored armed uprising against the Chinese Government.

For him to now claim he is not a separatist need a certain amount of convincing.

From what you have told me, at the very basic level of acknowledging his nationality, he has not done so.

So I cannot see how he can have any credibility in claiming that he does not seek a separate Tibetan state.

So, Tim,

Is or is the Dai Lai Lama a separatist whose goal is the creation of an independent state?

What do the facts look like at your end?

[Pffefer]

Tim, Tibet is an international matter as much as Iraq is an international matter. Politicians from "staunch US allies" who oppose the Iraq war might win more popularity contests in their respective countries, but how the "war" will run its course will be determined by Washington and Washington only.

These people can say whatever they want to say to please and appease their constituents, but they have no means to influence Tibet. It is up to Beijing.

[Cao Meng De]

What Bertrand Delanoe does is internal affairs of France.

How China decide to react to Delanoe's stunt is strictly internal affairs of China.

How angry Chinese urban youth will express their anger is also strictly their business.

In other words, Long Boeing, Short Airbus. Don't expect further Chinese high speed rail contracts awarded to French companies.

Good Job, Sarkozy. You managed to un-ravel years of Franco-China cooperation under Chirac in barely two weeks.

United States is too big and too important for China to confront head on right now. France is just the right size country for China make an example of. We need to demo the consequences of challenging the new superpower. As Chinese say, killing the chicken to scare the money. Thank you for volunteer, France.

Real smart move, Mr Bruni.

[A B]

Cao,

"United States is too big and too important for China to confront head on right now"

Tell that to the Vietnamese, Osama Bin Laden, the Iraqi Insurgency, and so on.

Also tell that to the Mongols, the Manchus, and all the other minorities that successfully conquered China. Or if you wish, tell it to the Goths and other peoples that conquered Rome.

Also tell it to the British, who conquered India with nothing more than a handful of men, a bit of courage, sharp bayonets and rifles.

History is replete with examples of small groups defeating out sized opponents by out organizing, out maneuvering, and out smarting them.

[Cao Meng De]

@AB

United States is too big and too important for China to confront head on right now

The key word is RIGHT NOW. Timing is everything, buddy.

In fact it took Mongols three generations to conquer entire China.

Patience, young grasshopper.

Of course, the Fu@kers that order the NED to organize the latest "Tibetan Uprising" will have to pay.

I am not one for collective punishment. There is no need to wage war on entire populations of United States to get back at these responsible few.

But if I am directing Chinese intelligence operations right now, I would start to noted down all members of Project for New American Century, their children, loved ones everything that they cherish and hold dear.

Those who oppose us will stand knee deep in the blood of their own children....

[RY]

Bertrand Delanoe can nominate Dali Lama King of France if he wants to, but I can see this anti-French/West sentiment will only grow. Today it is protesting Carefore in China, tomorrow canceled contracts on Airbus and Areva.

I agree, long Boeing, short Airbus.

[Y]

Giving Tibet a "meaningful autonomy" like what Hong Kong gets might not be a bad idea.
The status of Hong Kong was regarded by some as an international issue before its handover in 1997, right?

I think china has a way to shut up all those western politicians who are fond of Dalai for whatever reason.

This depends how sincere Dalai is, after all he did hold a top position in the congress of PRC. It takes wisdom from the chinese leaders to work out something that lasts long.

But for France, just ignore it --- it is an opportunistic nation that is not worthwhile to fight against.

[RY]

I don't think Chinese government object Tibet autonomy, but just not with Dali Lama, too close for comfort due to Dalai Lama's close US ties, its like helping CIA starting a branch office in China. Dalai Lama will seek independence with the back of the West once he achieves "autonomy".

Time is on China's side and Dalai Lama knows it. What is another 50 years as there is no clear second in command in the Tibetan independence movement that have as much international influence as Dalai Lama, which we should call Fenchie from now on.

[Y]

This might sound crazy. But hey everybody, remember to give me the credit for putiing this forward first.

The city of Shenzhen is Deng Xiaoping's pilot project for market economy in china. Tibet might be a golden opportunity
for the chinese government and the taiwan government to learn how to work together to resolve all the historical issues once and for all.

Taiwan has the credit of being a democratic society and mainland has the legitimacy. If they work together to build a society something in between for Tibet with Dalai serving only as a religious leader, the benefit for the great china is invaluable.

[nanheyangrouchuan]

I've been saying that the Boxer Rebellion will happen again, and many have turned away. But now it is happening!

Threats against foreigners/French in Beijing:
http://www.zhongnanhaiblog.com/2008/04/fear-and-loathing-in-china.htm

Even China' s own para-olympic torch bearer is being branded a "race enemy" for calling for restraint by the Chinese people:

http://shanghaiist.com/2008/04/22/anti-french-anti-carrefour-fury-bubble-over.php?gallery1919Pic=19#gallery

"Another more recent story relates to Jin Jing, our Paralympian heroine who had bravely defended the Olympic torch from some pro-Tibetan protestor in Paris during the torch relay. ESWN tells of how she has become the greatest traitor of the Chinese nation literally overnight for merely suggesting that people should be careful about the Carrefour boycott, because the many Chinese employees of that company would be the first to suffer."

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/200804b.brief.htm#030
http://www.bullog.cn/blogs/qianliexian/archives/127165.aspx

The Western powers, India, Japan and South Korea must rise to the occasion to contain then dissect bad, bad China once and for all!

[Cao Meng De]

Ah, it was a lively discussion until , predictably, certain stinky meat product shows up

[Joerg]

There is exactly one way something becomes of international interest: If people worldwide decide to take a interest in something. And that is exactly what is happening. A government can claim anything they want - if people, especially people not bound by this government or who did not elect this government take an interest, it's an international matter.
And by that, it's automatically a political matter, because politics is what people are concerned about.

[Peanut Butter]

Well done Mr. Mayor, the free world is proud of you.

[A B]

Oh, while we are talking about whether this is an international matter....

The Dai Lai Lama holds a position as the "head of state" in the "Central Tibetan Administration" which you can look up in tibet.net

The site is no doubt blocked in China.

Is it not self evident that if the Dai Lai Lama bills himself as not seeking secession from China that he ought to disassociate himself from this "government in exile" completely and denounce them as contrary to his goals?

So, Tim, having said that, why is it that whenever the Dai Lai Lama is quoted in the Western press as not seeking a separate state that no reporter goes to do the most basic fact checking to see if it has any credibility?

If I recall, most Catholics grin a bit and mentally conduct a sanity and fact check when the issue of Papal infallibility comes up.

[A B]

"Those who oppose us will stand knee deep in the blood of their own children...."

That is the kind of statements that damage the reputation and credibility of China and the Chinese People as the longest continuous civilization in history.

As a civilized people, China and Chinese is constrained by the need to limit the use of barbaric methods except as a last resort.

Talk like this, especially when it is in lieu of immediate, legitimate, substantiative action, only serve to not only harm China, but the world.

An example of immediate, legitimate, and substantive retaliatory action aimed at the United States(which may or may not be justified or necessary at this time), would be something like this:

A subtle change in the central government's policies to favor the settlement of select export goods in Euros instead of Dollars. So exporters of goods that are high value added, for which there are few non-Chinese sources of supply that can be quickly developed, would be gently guided to price their products in Euros.

If the customer do not wish to pay in Euros, no problem, initially there will just be a small premium of 2% for the same product in dollars, but that can be gradually induced to rise over time.

The message this sends will be loud and clear.

Cai, drop the loose, rabid talk, which is cheap, and focus on substance.

[Bill]

I think Cao Meng De's post reflects the real sentiments of most Chinese. The world should make a note of this and beware of what is coming. This post reflects the real nature of Chinese, and their culture extremely well.

[A B]

Bill,

The vast majority of Chinese are a poor people, hardly one generation removed from being peasant farmers.

The vast majority also are ill educated, ill trained, and not wise to the ways of civilized society in China, let alone the world.

It is the job of the Government (both central and local) to uplift the quality of the people, both in terms of standards of living and in terms of civility.

The situation is hardly any different in the United States or anywhere else?

Do you ask the rioters of Los Angeles, Paris, Britain, etc. about their opinions and take it seriously?

Do you take the anger and expressions of rage of black Muslim activists in the United States as indicative of the real nature of Americans?

It is unfortunate that with the relaxation of controls in China, these angry sentiments get expressed, and sadly, amplified by mechanisms like the internet and the public's access to tools of modern communications from cell phones to chat rooms.

If the issue is to be "internationalized", that is sufficient reason for the international community to recognize that it is imperative to give a fair, honest, and complete hearing to all sides of the Tibet issue, and regardless of the outcome of the debate, be supportive of the Chinese government's lawful means to restore peace and order to Tibet.

China do not need a bloodbath of religious and ethnic violence to break out like Rwanda, India during the Partition, or in U.S. occupied Iraq.

I might just point out that the international community that is so willing and quick to condemn China on Tibet have been virtually silent on the failure of the United States to do whatever it takes to restore order and end ethnic violence in Iraq.

Under international law, the occupying power is lawfully obligated to maintain order and ensure that the population is provided with the means of subsistence. a.k.a. "You break it, you fix it".

Should we apply the standards of American conduct in Iraq to judge Chinese "repression"?

Last I heard, no prisoner has been sent from Tibet and surrounding provinces to the equivalent of Guantanamo Bay, nor have people been arbitrarily detained for years for being "terrorists" or "insurgents" since the Tibet troubles broke out this spring.

A bit of balance and fairness to China on the Tibet issue would earn the Western world a lot of friends, rather than the rants of Cao.

There is, of course, no way to know if Cao is even a real person, whether the person is a Chinese national, or an agent provocateur working for some dark forces attempting to instigate violence and anger among the posters of this board.

Don't fall for it, Bill.

Violence by the Dai Lai Lama's followers is unacceptable.

Violence as a response is also unacceptable.

It was once said, "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."

I dare say, the Dai Lai Lama's followers include many incompetents among them.

[Cao Meng De]

@AB

Really now.

"Tell that to the Vietnamese, Osama Bin Laden, the Iraqi Insurgency, and so on."

btw you are way behind kid. Chinese export has already reoriented toward Eurozone since last year. Export tyo Europe soared while export to US slowed.

Not central goverment policy, just good economics.

I don't represent the voice of Chinese people. Neither do you. Nor do you set government policy. So Chill out.

But I do believe that the one ultimately responsible must be made to pay. That means the neo-con cabal. They had caused the death of hundred of thousands in Iraq and Afganistan. And now blood of innocent Han and Hui Muslim shop keepers are also on their hand.

Like I said I am oppose to collective punishment. There is no need to involve ordinary Americans in this. But members of neo-con cabal must pay a dear price.

[Liar Liar]

"Meaningful autonomy" for Tibet? After Kosovo, everyone on this earth knows: "meaningful autonomy" == prelude of independence.

[A B]

On the subject of the "neo-con cabal"....

Then you mentioned the Project for the New American Century in the same vein.

Um.... last I checked my Washington think tank roster, the latter organization is the furthest from the "neo-con cabal" as you can get without going to the fringe groups.

If you are going to have such vengeful thoughts, how about identifying your targets accurately first?

Wouldn't want you to accidentally bomb an Embassy!

Not that it is an issue on this thread, but the neo-cons have done more to forward Chinese interests than just about any other group --- they got the US into another Vietnam that is sapping the nations strength and distracting their attention from the real threat from Muslims. Their economic policy resulted in vast debts and asset bubbles being run up by the US that will hamstrung an American comeback for decades.

China couldn't have ordered up a better weapon against the US.

Thank you for claiming I don't set government policy!

Then I cannot be held responsible for the mess!

[Cao Meng De]

@AB

You mean Paul Wolfowitz is not consider neo-con? How about Dick Cheney? Robert Kagan? Donald Rumsfeld?

But you are right. there is no agument that the neo-cons have done more to forward Chinese interests than just about any other group. Maybe I spoke in haste.

[A B]

""meaningful autonomy" == prelude of independence"

But the Dai Lai Lama publicly states that he is not seeking independence.

Yet he is the head of state of a government in exile and have previously participated in an armed rebellion.

And he does not carry a Chinese passport nor acknowledge his nationality as Chinese.

So why hasn't the Western governments acknowledge that supporting the Dai Lai Lama in any other capacity than the head of a religion amounts to support for a secession movement in violation of their policy to recognize China's existing borders and respect the territorial integrity of China?

Funny no one in the Western Press call the "Tibetan Government in Exile" for what it is.

Now, how about this.... did you know that this "Tibetan government" receives funding from many Western countries and agencies.

I wonder how the US would react if China funded al-Qaeda's humanitarian activities (just not the terrorist activites)!

For that matter, what if Chinese organizations were to give humanitarian assistance to Hamas? Islamic Jihad?

These agencies all do relief, run hospitals, schools, and lots of good!

Fair is fair!

The point I am making is China have failed to adopt a tough stance and take concrete action against terrorism by any number of groups from Fan Lun Gong to Tibetan separatists.

Fan Lun Gong went so far as to knock out a satellite relay to China once.

If anyone did that to an American satellite, they will be hunted down and terminated. Fast.

Even if they are hiding in Beijing at Zhongnanhai.

China have got to stop behaving like a third rate power.